For the most part these groups were not real friendly with those “animal rights” nuts who were out to make sure pet were extinct. To participate on these groups you definitely had to check any anti breeder bias at the door. Needless to say that’s easier said than done so I was frequently booted off these boards only to come back later with a new alias and a new persona as well.
I have to say that participating in these group discussions enlightened me on a number of issues. Some of my views on responsible breeding and responsible pet ownership comes from more conservative thinking that some members (who were breeders) offered, including Walt Hutchens himself. Yet, some of my opinions were only verified with the extreme thinking that went against any premise I had allowing support for high volume breeding or that companion pets should be a commodity to be used for purely financial motivations.
I’ve never considered myself part of any real group or movement. Instead, I arrive at opinions I’m comfortable with as an advocate for change and as a pet owner.
Enter the Nathan Winograd inspired “No Kill” movement. Its troubling that the movement’s leadership lacks the honesty and integrity needed for serious shelter reform. Instead, early on Winograd sold out to the breeder interests with his mantra of pet overpopulation being a myth and the hawkish battle he has waged with the animal protection community.’
I do not share his views on either of those two areas. It remains my position that the animal protection community is fighting the same battle as advocates seeking to not only put an end to shelter killing but more importantly trying to curtail the suffering many animals are exposed to at the hands of those who would exploit them for profit.
Drats wrote of Winograd’s involvement with Rick Berman and his Center for Consumer Freedom. Winograd’s explanation was that Berman contacted him and he agreed to an interview. He has also repeatedly claimed that this interview does not mean he supports Berman in any way. Do you think people would be outraged if Dr King granted an interview with the leader of an oppressor group like the Klue Klux Klan to simply help promote his book?
There is no redemption in sitting down with the devil, a man responsible for exploiting the suffering of people and their companion friends, using him to promote the sale of your books to breeders. It’s simply blood money flowing from the hands of the exploiters to your bank account.
That Drats blog was removed along with a number of other blogs written about Winograd and puppy mills under a permanent injunction granted to No Kill Nation. No Kill Nation’s leader Debi Day filed for an injunction over allegations that her group No Kill Nation refused to report how it spent over $100,000 in donations collected under its “100+ Abandoned Dogs in the Everglades Project” in the fall of 2011.
It has also been highly suspect that any leader of a self described advocacy group would have spent close to $100,000 in legal fees when a far simpler solution would have been to just share an accounting on how the money was spent. What other ulterior motive would have? Read on.
Drats wrote a blog which discussed the financial support Nathan Winograd received in accepting cash from a Texas breeder support group called the Responsible Pet Owners Alliance (RPOA). Winograd has repeated denied or refused to discuss this allegation. Yet, on his own No Kill Advocacy letterhead he welcomes RPOA as one of the sponsors for his conference.
While the amount of money that transferred hands is not mentioned the puppy mill business operates much like a Mexican drug cartel where huge amounts of cash is involved. Payoffs and protection are part of remaining profitable, regulations and government oversight are not.
That cash used to help sponsor bringing Winograd to Houston for the 2009 No Kill Conference was funneled through Bett Sundermyer’s group No Kill Houston.
"No Kill Houston has NO family ties to puppy mills. There is a huge difference in raising a litter of puppies in your home, and a puppy mill" - Bett Sundermyer
That might be true but there is also a big difference between a breeder who raises a littter of puppies in their home and a breeder who maintains a kennel with several breeds of dogs and advertises those puppies for sale as a commercial breeder. In fact, records show the family business involved in breeding several breeds of small “toy” puppies in Houston for decades. Vivian ran/runs a kennel called Machree in Houston and has operated under the names Shiloh Partie Nursery or Shiloh Kennels as well. According to sources this breeding kennel has been around for twenty plus years.
The family owning a breeding business is clear. What isn’t clear is why Bett Sundermyer continues to deny this as fact and instead has launched an attack on directed towards my business interests. My business interests, including those legal interests in Houston DO NOT involve exploiting the sale of puppies in an area with a history of pet overpopulation.
Bett Sundermyer is listed as founder and President of No Kill Houston while Vivian sits on the board as well. While No Kill Houston’s support for RPOA is distasteful its opposition to the Texas Humane Legislation Network is beyond the pale. THLN supported last years effort to pass much needed reform regulations that provide reasonable standards for “puppy mils” yet No Kill Houston was silent in opposition. It is simply disingenuous to not divulge your connections to the breeding industry while taking positions that oppose reform of those same breeder groups.
RPOA has been around longer than I and have opposed puppy mill legislature for over a decade as well. Mary Beth’s group is NOT a friend to the millions of dogs who have suffered though the years living in squalor conditions supported by the weak laws in Texas that allowed the abuse to continue.
Taking money from the RPOA laundered through No Kill Houston doesn’t cleanse the blood of dogs who suffered or died from the weak laws in Texas that should have protected them. It is no wonder why self proclaimed advocacy groups like No Kill Houston were silent in supporting the recently passed Texas version of puppy mill reform – HB 1451. Drats wrote about HB 1451’sa passing as well That too was removed for being defamatory against No Kill Nation.
The third strike against Winograd’s real motives and support was a blog written which pointed out Nathan’s participation in giving a no kill presentation at an AKC sponsored dog show in Long Beach California. What follows is a face book discussion with several breeders I have had the pleasure meeting through the years. It is one thing for me to write about these breeder connections to Winograd’s No Kill movement but an entirely different eye opening experience when breeders confirm what I have just stated.
But, as you’ll see – even the breeder rats are jumping ship. I’ve highlighted the names of those commenting and key passages.to make it easier to read.
Yesterday at 3:19am (October 28, 2012)
LanCo shelter goes "no kill," critics say growing trend harms pets
My AKC fed, the Florida Association of Kennel Clubs, just came out in opposition to No Kill and I believe their reasons were similar to this. Maybe it's time to rethink No Kill. Perhaps we've not understood it as well as we thought?
Candace Ware True "No Kill Equation" shelters (Winograd's plan) remain open admission. There are 50 communities doing it that way and they are reportedly killing less than 10% of their total intake, and the euthanasia they do perform is justified by aggression, age, health, etc.
Unfortunately, there are shelters out there calling themselves "No Kill" but not following the entire equation. The most common example of this, as far as I can see, are shelters that are *not* open-admission shelters. If, when they go no-kill, a shelter starts "cherry picking" only the most marketable animals -- then they are not technically "No Kill" as outlined by Winograd. They are just shifting the problem elsewhere; not solving it.
I have no personal opinion on whether it works, or how well, as I try not to opine on things unless I have actual hands-on experience with them. But according to what I have read, there are a few dozen communities operating in accordance with Winograd's guidelines and it appears they are making it work.
Didi Culp The shelter where I work does not have to euthanize dogs for space. We don't call ourselves "NK" because every case is arguable. For example, a dog that kills chickens may be adoptable and definitely would not have to be put down if he had an owner or trainer who did not need him to live with chickens. But in a shelter we are comparing him to dogs that have never killed anything. (For the record we did find a great home for a White GSD who kills chickens. 5 years later, still good).
Jackie Kensler omg probably most BTs would kill chickens...
Jackie Kensler Candace Ware some NK shelters do under the table deals w/other shelters and fudge on their numbers.. Regardless, the name is being perverted so there's nk confusion that apparently can cause big problems.
Jackie Kensler and Candace Ware the NK Equation says other things that they don't even try to live up to as evidenced by NW's recent blog where he advocates for the extinction of the breeds. When I think of the effect that is going to have on his followers who read that and recognize his full endorsement of the absolute end to breeding it is clear nk is drawing a line in the sand that can't be misinterpretted; there is no more pretense. Stand by for a tsunami of breeder hate. This guy was at a dog show speaking to breeders and selling his book, and now he is saying, oh, the joke's on you--I never cared about your breeds and I never cared about you. You were just someone to use to promote my name. He is saying very plainly that tho he stands by his claim that shelter over-pop is a myth which absolves breeders from being the cause of overall problems, he's decided they must make the sacrifice anyway and stop all breeding so no one can acquire a dog any other way but adoption--and it's obvious this must happen either by force legally, or by continuing to campaign against them so no one buys from them--you have to be thick as a brick not to get that message. And if the breeds die which they will that is no skin off his nose--he won't shed a tear he says--since they hold no value whatsoever to him and dogs would all be healthier if they were mutts. ...really...nw bite me...hard..
Candace Ware If that is what he was saying then I can see why you'd be upset. I would be too. Totally. But that's a lot to draw from what I read. I'll have to go back and read it again. I sort oof got the impression he was only saying that to counter people who thought he was overly supporting of breeders. Like he was getting flack from the AR/vegan contingent about not going after breeders. It struck me as a reaction to that, not a declaration that he and No Kill would henceforth advocate for the extinction of breeds.
Candace Ware That whole "mutts are healthier" thing has been debunked, I thought.
Jackie Kensler there is no thinking about it...he's being an ass and he knows it. all he cares about his having another blog under his belt that makes someone out to be the evil antagonist so he can be Mary Poppins. Do you actually think he's that angry when he sits down to write those things? He's have dropped over from a heart attack by now or his stomach would look like swiss cheese. He's calculating and creating his WWF scenarios to keep his market stimulated and they love that stuff. He prolly goes home, has a steak dinner and whelps a litter of puppies...he's a phony...
Jackie Kensler either way he's very calculating and he's using breeders as a pawn. he can kiss it...
Jackie Kensler yes that's exactly what he did. He got accused of being soft on breeders so he said..oh yeah? Watch how soft I am..come here breeders, now stand there while I kick the s**t out of you for everyone to see. They're not going to accuse me of being soft. And just to underscore it...I'll come right out and deliver the ultimate message about how hard I can be...I'll kill your children. Now see how soft I am? See how I can destroy someone and if I ever get my hands on whoever threatened my dog this is what I will do to you. I get totally what he's saying.
Jackie Kensler he can't really touch the people who came after him after DAC (Douglas Anthony Cooper) stirred them up, so he's grabbed the easiest target and used them as example of his prowess. He's gone though his history of breeder-hate reminding them of all of the blows he's delivered and he's bragging about his ultimate manliness in bashing the AKC in his book. How dare you say I'm a breeder-lover..have you forgotten the size of my set? Well if you have, I'll illustrate for you...I'll perform a public flogging these breeders won't forget and neither will you....you'll never accuse me of being soft again. And if you do, I'll have this on record to prove you are wrong...so, here's my stand in case there is any confusion. To hell with the breeds and to hell with all the breeders. My take---he suffered a Narcissistic Injury and this is what narcissists do to recover---they find someone to flog...someone must pay. This ensures they maintain their image and if it's being feared that's as good as being loved, as long as they're on top. He's the only one who's exhaulted. I've been saying for a long time I thought he was a narcissist and he's falling right in line. That statement proves to me beyond any question whatsoever---he has no empathy...what he said was as cold as ice. Anyone who can't see that has not read that blog, doesn't care that he said what he said or isn't paying very close attention, figures he runs his mouth anyway so it doesn't matter, or wants to play over it so his image won't be sullied b/c they don't want to admit maybe supporting him isn't all that smart...AR is AR and he's as AR as they bloody come.
Jackie Kensler Candace Ware -- It might be that personally deep down inside he doesn't have a problem with some breeding...it's hard to tell. What he is in reality and what he is in his blogs don't have to be the same thing--it's like writing pulp fiction. He has to keep a story line going and he knows exactly the elements to throw into it by now b/c that's what keeps him in business. He's a salesman and he wakes up every morning unemployed. He has to stimulate donations, sell books and I imagine get contracts and those blogs are his primary marketing tool. He attracts $ and he grows his following to do his work for him--he clones himself. He's either just a cut-throat who figures all's fair--don't take it personally--or he's the genuine article, really wants to wipe out breeding and just like HSUS will toy with them whenever it's useful knowing he'll cut their hearts out eventually--they are totally objectified and he pulls them in and pushes them away however it suits him. But the thing is, what he says affects legislation and the people he's using as pawns are playing for keeps. He can just keep on truckin' if he loses...but when we lose, we lose it for good. And notice he uses "the term" 13 times in that blog--it's the only way he refers to breeders at all--it's like machine gun fire. Accident.....yeah right. He's working up his audience so by the time he finishes off the beating with the climax they are right there with him--who needs breeds anyway...death to the selfish shallow breeders and death to their stupid, unhealthy, worthless breeds. But the breeders will overlook it b/c well if you don't support him you're stuck w/the stigma of turning your back on suffering. I'd better say I support no kill or what does that say about me? Well...things are not so cut and dried here and maybe the truth is coming out about that, too. It does not in any way put anyone on the side of HSUS and ASPCA as I'm sure he would have it believed--it's not hi-kill or no-kill and you don't have to choose. Specifically for the reason you said; it's possible to achieve the same goal w/o promoting his brand. I recently heard reference to something called "save more"---I like that name a lot. Doesn't that describe it with much more accuracy and ... surprise--it does not contain the obligatory AR emotive language with the built in guilt trip.
Didi Culp I am not in favor of new laws in this climate. Making fair decisions in a polarized lobbying arena is impossible. Euthanasia, by definition, is only possible when an animal is dying. Period. Spending tax dollars for the humane slaughter of companion animals with issues is a problem in these economic times. Suffering or warehousing living creatures is also not a solution. The belief industry has co-opted all these concerns which draws people who don't care a whit about the issues. They just see the money pile. In the end it's good people who need their money and their companion animals who will be separated from both. ARGH.
Lynn Turriff I would like to know exactly who these 'experts' are, and
where they get their information.
We have been blindsided all too often by people who are
accorded 'expert' status, only to discover that they are
strong AR advocates, if not outright extremists.
I do find this a little disturbing:
"The league said it will try to accommodate as many animals
that it can and that creating a "no-kill" community will
require "strong licensing laws, spay/neuter initiatives and
animal control programs" on the local, county and state
Why not *enforce* the leash laws they have? Is there
another flurry of restrictive ordinances in the pipeline?
The simplest solution to most of the few problems that do
exist is to enforce existing least and abuse laws, not to
impose more. Why will they 'try to accomodate' ..? True
no-kill is open admission.
This doesn't sound like Winograd's no-kill at all, it
sounds like a 'we can prove this won't work' effort.
So .. it kind of seems they are playing both ends against
the middle. Two different AR influenced groups disputing
territory. And .. guess who loses
Friday at 4:13am (October 26, 2012)
Their true colors aren't the only ones showing here. This is the true Nathan and he's cloning himself daily. How can anyone who loves the breeds allign themselves with this? What is he capable of doing if he's capable of even saying it? There has to be a way to support shelter reform without getting behind someone like this.
"I bashed the AKC in Redemption. And I believe that though dogs are not dying because of pet overpopulation, they are still dying. And as long as that is true, I believe people should adopt from a rescue or shelter. I also could not care less about maintaining breeds and never have. As far as I am concerned, if all dogs become all-mutt, that would be fine with me and probably healthier for the dogs. I’m a Heinz 57 man myself." Nathan Winograd
Jay Kitchener Makes no sense. Not logical. Mixed breeds come from pure breeds. Can't have one without the other. (sigh)
Jackie Kensler he's a lying sob and he's a total b'tard. He's filling those ppl full of garbage and he knows it. He's equating the worst of the worst w/pet shops and telling those ppl those breeders aren't regulated. he's a damned liar
Anke Masters I am pretty fed up with the compartmentalizing. Just because they coined a catchy name for it does not mean that many people have not worked for shelter animals prior to them. Just because some big money showed up and pushed HSUS, does not mean, there weren't lots of people fighting HSUS long before. We have been rescuing long before 'rescue' became the new business model and war cry, we have been pushing shelters long before W.N. showed up and we have been educating folks about HSUS long before HW was created. AARRGG I do not begrudge them their success - how can I - however, N.W. throwing breeders under the bus, DAC throwing HWers under the bus to maintain and justify the 'purity' of their souls or whatever ..... in my mind proves the lack of purity in their hearts. Do it for the cause, the good, quit bragging about it and you don't have to smack down others. Anybody bragging about their good deeds does not hold much credence in my book.
Jackie Kensler this guy is sick
Thomas Kirby In one of his earlier blog posts he mentioned conditions under which the HSUS could redeem itself. Trouble is, sincere or not, if the HSUS can redeem itself under certain conditions, it can pretend that those conditions were met. It can also then evade bent held accountable for its crimes, for which its executives should spend a lot of time in jail for. It can run out the statute of limitations by delaying the reckoning then its victims will still be hurt and they will be unable to be prosecuted.
Jackie Kensler he doesn't care about the breeds....well he is creating a whole lot of other idiots who are not going to care about he breeds either. He is devaluing everything we value and teaching that. And peopel will listne..especially young ppl and they are impressionable. he is dangerous and he should not be supported. That's sick and he even says thehy're not ressonsible for over pop.He just doesn't want them breeding anyway. he wants it that way.
Anke Masters but bottom line is, that we could unite and be a power as well. It's not his fault that our side can't get it together and insists on being snooty. I am over-simplifying of course, but we are free to create a fighting force as well. We have many good groups fighting but it's not N.W.'s fault that we can't get much traction. That's on US!!
Jackie Kensler true but Im' not going to promote his shit. he can bite me
Jackie Kensler everybody needs to see what he said...everybody needs to know the truth. This guy is stark raving mad
Jackie Kensler DAC wrote an article about him...he makes him sound like such a normal person. No veganism, no AR, and no hint that he doesn't give a shit if every breed disappears. Well I think people have a right to know that. Now DAC says Bermam isn't transparent??? That Nathan is up fromt..no kill is honest? Well DAC was not very honest. He hid some very improtant info..namely that this guy is a snap case....he's bats**t crazy and he should not be responsible for the laws and rules of our society i.e. our shelters.
Jackie Kensler he is not to be trusted
Jackie Kensler he shouldn't be anywhere near a shelter
Thomas Kirby "Our side" has trouble getting out of the starting gates because some of us still give away power. I can explain the psychological mechanism in great detail. The people who are giving us trouble do not deserve to "regulate, not ban" and they don't deserve to hear "we're not saying that any idiot should own a tiger."
It's awful hard to start out in a leaky rowboat that some people insist on drilling holes in. They also bash on people who want to patch those holes. Not as much, but this is improving too slowly.
Jackie Kensler you do realize when you push no kill you're simply pimping for him. when a shelter decides to do it they hire him as a consultant. that's what it's all about. well Im not pimping for this ahole anymore. he wants to destroy breeders and he wants to destroy breeds. F him!!! no breeder should be support that ever. period,.
Anke Masters I doubt he would, He's vegan after all LOL
Jackie Kensler any breeder who supports no kill is just plain stupid
Anke Masters no-kill as his movement, sure. Breeders against needless shelter killings, hardly.
Thomas Kirby Not stupid. It can take a little time to peel off this mask.
Jackie Kensler Anke Masters ya know, that's the kind thing that's such a no -brainer it should not have to be said. It's insulting for it not to be implied as far as I'm concerned. Anyone who couldn't ascertain that isn't worth sending a message. What else could it mean?
Anke Masters it might be insulting to you but there are plenty of people who dont get it.
Jackie Kensler there are other ways to support shelter reform and shelter reform doesn't mean kill more. There are shelters who have done it without him. Not every shelter is the hell he makes them out to be; that works for him, just like it works to make breeders out as non-human. non-human. not worth caring about; not of value; not deserving of anything they value. insignificant and if you check this post where it is in another place, apparently not deserving of honesty either. Just another sly marketing dawg...anyone who thinks other wise is in lala land. and I'm glad I said it before this blog came out because it's been bugging me for quite some time--since last December at least.
Jackie Kensler I don't care I don't care. I really really don't care...
Jackie Kensler that's like saying hi, btw I'm human. If it's not someone who can pick it up in conversation or ask, then if they don't get that they aren't going to get anything else. I get it..that's all that matters to me.
Thomas Kirby His methods are the kind that work on smart people.
Jackie Kensler i just lost electricity just like that poof!
Jackie Kensler i love what you said about compartmentalizing, Anke Masters. That was brilliant. Well, this is my page, and I figure if folks on my page can't figure it out...that's another problem. I'm not going to assume anyone's stupidity for them. They're going to have to step up and claim it :) It doesn't need correcting. It's not a question. Correcting it for anybody demeans me as a human....not you specifically, but just anybody. That's the kind of thing I don't want corrected.
Thomas Kirby Getting tired, angry, and frustrated can give you a chance to gain a stronger perspective on this and stronger resolve.
Jackie Kensler what do you mean Thomas Kirby about his methods?
Thomas Kirby Jackie, I think that you are working through a few things and coming to a greater understanding. The things that you are understanding better will piss you off. I don't know how many times I've had to say that I simply can't believe this BS and that this BS rules. The reason that it rules is because the BSers have a motive to lord it over other people. You and I have our plates full trying to live our lives and we don't have a motive to get over on others, other than self-defense. Maybe that's where some of the BSers come from too, they simply broke after trying to be decent people and getting worked over.
Jackie Kensler ok Thomas Kirby -- make sure you read the blog and what I pulled out up in the status, and then read this.
Here's what I'm seeing. I've thought for a long time NW was probably a narcissist. if you've read any of Malignant Self-Love, it talks about th...See More
Thomas Kirby The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, no more and no less.
I haven't put that one together like you have. I did figure that he was setting it up so that we would associate his program with the beating that the HSUS and the ASPCA need. If he becomes enough of an icon he can sway people to thinking that the HSUS and ASPCA need to be corrected, rather than totally obliterated and all executives jailed.
Winograd has worse than his ego to protect. He has a program to protect.
Thomas Kirby You might think of it as a controlled descent. The ASPCA has done it before. They might still be aware that they get stripped of their power when they get too big for their britches eventually, and right now it looks like they bid fair not only to kill the golden goose, but to nuke the entire farm and salt it with cobalt-60. This is the result of a generation of narcissist ASPD (anti-social personality disorder) types that don't even have the sense to let what they harvest grow back, and to actually clear-cut and fail to re-plant. Their own fathers are going to want them dead. If they are "redeemed" ten years from now they will be taking "credit" for restoring our freedoms and the environment.
Note - There you have it. Drats has been peeling away that mask for years. People are finally starting to open their eyes and listen.